Follow Up To “You Can Marry Your Cousin But Not Your Boyfriend” UPDATED

So last Friday (20/04/2012) I posted this article.

A quick summary, I was just ranting about how you can marry your cousin in some states but not your boyfriend (or girlfriend) if you’re gay.

The marrying your cousin thing was left out for some reason and a lot of focus was drawn to whether gay marriage is right or wrong and what religions role in it was.

I just want to thank you for the great response and I had some really affirming comments on there, people thanking me for providing a nice place to discuss this without any anger. And it was all very lovely discussion, a bit of healthy debate and I would like to thank the people who commented on it for being polite and respectful to each other.

I replied to one person and they made an article on their blog with their response and I replied on there and it turned out to be a lengthy post and I would like to share what I said because I wrote so much that it seemed like a nice follow off and closing up point.

The article was on Birds blog. On this post there is also her reply to someone else about Satan that is very interesting to read.

Below is her response to me and then my lengthy response which I think was polite but the length could have made it seem like I was ranting at her, which I want you, and her, to know I wasn’t.

BIRD:
 I’m in complete agreement with rowangirl. A person is not defined by their sin…they are a person struggling with a sin, just like everyone else. In my opinion, science has proved nothing to support gay copulation. It produces no life, which is scientifically what sex was designed for. Thank you for inviting our opinions and providing a civil atmosphere to discuss this topic. :-)

ME:
Is it truly a sin if they had no say in the matter? Like an earlier comment stated, a gay person is no more in control of their sexuality than a person is with the colour of their skin. It is often said that God created us in his image. I’d love a quote from the Bible that says being gay is wrong.

Also as a comment stated (think it may have been the same one) the Bible is thousands of years old, how do people still think it applies today in the exact way it was created, as the planet matures and as a race we grow surely must peoples morals.

BIRD:
 You pose very good questions, Daniel. However, I have learned that these arguments go round and round but never answer anyone to their satisfaction.  I don’t find that science has proved that there is no God, or that people are born gay. You don’t accept that the bible is true…So, we’re at an impasse. The bible says in many places homosexuality is a sin. It also says that without being saved, the words in the bible are foolishness to man. See? There is no winning the battle without someone having an open mind. I won’t..I believe in God 100% and His Word..and you won’t either…the book is foolishness to you. It is that same book that tells Christiansnot to be running around judging people…and that includes homosexuals. If science is all we’re looking for here, than maybe a repulsion to homosexuality is an instinct…I don’t say that to agree with it, but science is just too random to be used as proof in all this.

ME:

Hi, I thought I would comment on here after seeing the link to my blog, hope you don’t mind (:

Regarding science proving there is no God, I don’t think that science has and I hope it didn’t come across this way. My father says it best, “you can never prove God DOESN’T exist, you can only ever prove that he does” for example if we haven’t proven something there’s no way of knowing if that’s just because we haven’t found the right way of proving it.

Obviously this theory can apply to anything for example Aliens, (although that is another thing all together if you want to know my views just let me know aha). About people being born gay, I believe it is either they are born gay or they are gay through social conditioning, either way I don’t think it is a choice. Out of interest, what do you believe the reason for people being gay is? Do you believe Satan has made them that way? And if so if it is Satan’s doing, then surely the gay person has no more choice than if he were born gay?

Also, I don’t think the Bible is foolish at all, whilst I can’t say I have ever read it from start to finish I know some of the stories, and to me they are comparable to fables, which as you know, have a moral behind them.

For example the story from which I am named, Daniel. That teaches bravery and courage. To me the story of Noah and the Ark is about acceptance of all “breeds” (ie, species, races, genders). And obviously there are the ten commandments, where 6 of those apply to me to be nice as a person. So you see, the book isn’t foolish at all it teaches some really great things. Just the “higher meaning” of it doesn’t apply to me, because I’m a non believer (also I’m curios, as a non-believer does that mean I am sinning for not believing? I have always been led to believe that non believers, come the end of time (armageddon) that God will reveal himself to us and give the people who don’t believe a chance to repent, you’ll have to forgive me I am really uneducated when it comes to religion).

“It is that same book that tells Christians not to be running around judging people…and that includes homosexuals” I’m glad you agree it is quite contradictory, so what do you do in that situation, is it a matter of personal judgement whether you want to judge a gay person or not?

Your last statement, about Science being random. To me Science is a core thing to this world, without science we wouldn’t have things to cure diseases, to help injured people. We wouldn’t have the computers we sit and blog on or the television we watch our favorite programs on. Of course Science is random, and that is the beauty of it, (It sounds like I worship science now aha, I can assure you that’s not the case). Obviously there are downsides to sciene too, don’t get me wrong. For example atomic bombs, guns etc, all come from science too. I wasn’t using science as proof, just as a form of evidence.

Sorry for such a long post aha! I’m just finding this very intriguing, the only person I have to talk about religion with is my mother, and we don’t get any perfectly well as it is let alone when we discuss religion!

 

If you managed to read all the way to the end I applaud you and thank you for time. I hope you enjoyed the discussion. In lieu of the great response I had and the enjoyable debate I am going to post another article tomorrow tonight about another highly debatable subject.

Hopefully see you tomorrow now! Though I don’t think people will get as passionate aha, but it will be interesting to see everyone’s views.

[UPDATE: I decided to the post the article now aha]

This entry was posted in Life and tagged , , , , , , , by Daniel Postlethwaite. Bookmark the permalink.

About Daniel Postlethwaite

I study Film & TV Screenwriting with Creative Writing at the University of Central Lancashire. My three part plan is to move to Manchester next year, get a job in some media related position, then eventually move on up to London and from their go to New York or LA when I've got a tonne of experience. I have had four poems published by ForwardPress and I have had a short story based upon the first day at University published in the local paper. I am always looking for more competitions etc, if you know of any let me know.

14 thoughts on “Follow Up To “You Can Marry Your Cousin But Not Your Boyfriend” UPDATED

  1. Pingback: Your Thoughts: Do Aliens Exist? | Words Form Windows

  2. Here’s a copy:
    I’ll add a colder perspective. The bible says burning a bull on the altar as a sacrifice creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9.
    It says selling your daughter into slavery is sanctioned- Exodus 21:7
    It says men are not allowed contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24
    Lev. 25:44 states that one may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
    Exodus 35:2 clearly states that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.
    Eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10
    Lev. 21:20 states that one may not approach the altar of God if one has a defect in one’s sight.
    Lev. 19:27 trimming the hair around one’s temples is expressly forbidden.
    I could go on and on about absurd things the bible says, but I feel it isn’t necessary. Freedom of religion is the freedom for every citizen to apply the tenets of whatever religion to THEIR OWN LIFE. It’s certainly not the freedom to impose a religion you follow on another person. If we go by the faulty logic being used to attack same-sex unions the logical next step is to outlaw all non-christian marriages. that includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists.

    As to the born/bred nature of homosexuality I can add some scientific perspective. Although we don’t know conclusively the levels of genetic influence we do know gay brains react differently to sex hormones: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0510_050510_gayscent_2.html
    We also know there is a genetic pattern of the mothers of gay men being more fertile than the paternal mothers-in-law as proved by a study done in the University of Padova by Andrea Camperio-Ciani: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/06/18-01.html
    The evidence for a genetic link is quite substantial and although it may not prove causality, it definitely proves biological differences between homo and hetero-sexuals

    But, even then, even if we allow that there could be some sort of “choice” taking place. My position is that each individual is free to make their own choice. If sexuality is a choice, you’re not going to choose for me. I’m going to choose for myself.

    • Wow I never knew all those different things existed within the Bible, I will give credit where credit is due Bird did point out that the Bible is a little contradictory, mainly with the whole “not judging anyone including gay people”.

      But it just goes to show how much things have changed from then to now, very interesting indeed. Also thanks for the scientific links, I will definitely have a look at them!

      (I just checked out your About Me btw and left a comment :]
      If you don’t mind me asking, who is the theatre actor you are married to? Hope that’s not too personal. Thanks again for commenting!)

  3. As Bird said, it is foolishness to those who don’t believe, so the argument would go round and round forever. With regards to being born gay, or having no choice in the matter, this is how I view it.

    People are born with a sin nature–all of us. Different people find different sin pulls stronger than other, but we all struggle with something ( or more) that is called sin. Homosexual urges is one of those sins. Just because I was born with genes that don’t regulate my metabolism well, does not give me an excuse for putting extra food in my mouth. I am responsible for my choices. It’s the same with other sin, but for time constraints, we’ll move on.

    So, while we may be born with tendencies toward certain sins, we are still responsible for our own choices. The good news is that the Law (delineates sin) was given to us so we would see that we’re a mess and need God. He redeems us from our sin, although the struggle may still remain. If I say homosexual acts are a sin, I am not making a judgment. I am stating what God has already judged as sin. If I treat the person as subhuman, then I judge and I sin. It is possible to hate sin but love sinners. God does it all the time!

    I hope that helps, and I thank you for allowing me to speak in safety. Angie

    • Yes, but a Muslim would say you’re a sinner because you don’t cover your head with a scarf, as a “moral” woman should do (according to them). Orthodox Jews don’t eat pork, so according to their faith you’re a sinner if you do.
      You want to live your faith, do it by applying the rules of your religion to your own life instead of pushing them on other people and interfering with the next person’s freedom of religion.

      • But this then starts a whole other thing about who is the “one true God”, I agree Jews don’t have the right to say theirs is more than a Muslim has the right to say theirs is and so on and so forth. There is a really comedic saying, I don’t know if a comedian did say it but it goes:

        “Religion is like a penis. It’s fine to have one. It’s fine to be proud of it. But please don’t whip it out in public and start waving it around. And PLEASE don’t try to shove it down my children’s throats.”

        Also my brother, who is religious, said this to me after reading this post:

        “I just read your post about gay marriage, FYI, I believe being gay is no bigger sin than sex outside of marriage, I believe gay people have the right to be together and do stuff, (that’s only as destructive as people having a right to smoke!) But as regards to “marriage” why can’t they just have civil partnership, “marriage” is a religious ceremony.
        So there I have a few problems,
        if they were religious, they would observe the requirements of the said religion, but if they don’t their religion is in vain, so what’s the point in that?
        So if people want to be gay that’s fine, but why do they have to then get approval to rub Gods face in it!
        So remember, biblically masturbation is the same sin as homosexuality, every Christian who masturbates is as a gay to the lord!”

        Which I think really interesting, I never took the view of marriage being a religious ceremony, but, and correct me if I’m wrong on this, but doesn’t marriage provide more benefits than a Civil Partnership? For example if you get divorced you have to split whats shared etc etc?

        This is turning into a really large article now aha, after a week the comments will be automatically shut off though so it will end some time xD

        • Your brother is historically incorrect. Christian marriage derives from Roman Civil Law. It was a secular legal contract. Christians adopted that secular contract into their religion and changed its meaning by turning it into what they called a “sacrament”. They also changed other characteristics like for example outlawing divorce.
          Anti-gay arguments are unfortunately almost universally based in a lack of historical knowledge and the consistent use of fallacies and spurious arguments. So much so, that I can turn them around like this:

          Should Christians be allowed to marry?
          We should begin by saying being a Christian isn’t natural because no one is born a Christian, it’s something that’s taught or imposed by people who are members of that religion. They have groups whose sole purpose is to convert other people to their agenda. Christianity is only found in a single species on this planet unlike homosexuality which has been documented in over 450 species. And, let’s be honest, many in the world find Christian practices and beliefs peculiar (to say the least). In some parts of the world they’re called Infidels, in others they’re persecuted and in some even imprisoned for their unusual lifestyles. Christians promote a pathologically paranoid attitude regarding sex, and one could even make an argument of public health and safety due to their dangerous and deliberate disregard to birth control and condoms. The Catholic Church’s anti-condom campaign had disastrous results in Africa which resulted in the further propagation of the Aids.
          Then there are customs such as the public exhibition of sculptures and paintings of tortured and dead people (mostly thanks to the Catholic variety of Christians) that is also disturbing to many in the world.
          We also have to ask ourselves if a marriage between two christians should really be called “Marriage”, as they have changed the meaning of marriage as it was defined by Roman Law, and to them it’s not simply a legal contract as intended by Roman jurists- to them it’s some strange “sacrament” they perform before their magical god.
          And how about the children? There is widespread belief that the children of Christians are indoctrinated into their religious customs, making adoption by Christians a contentious issue. Whereas presumably the child of a teacher or homosexual will generally not necessarily follow in their parents footsteps, the children of religious households are generally obliged to participate in religious practices, some being permanently influenced by religious mythology. This mythology, some say, is a very dangerous aspect of Christians adopting children. In their weekly practice of communion there is the recurrent simulation of eating human flesh and drinking human blood, a practice that may appear barbaric and primitive to most people, glorifying cannibalism (a crime in most of the western world) and making it seem to be an ordinary and accepted practice.
          We add to that centuries of violence, religious wars and oppression and well…

  4. I appreciate pinkagendist’s list of scientific support for the biological basis of homosexuality, and also the list of biblical laws that civilization has outgrown over the last two thousand years. As I mentioned in my comments on your last post, Daniel, I am a happily married heterosexual woman, but it bothers me to hear the word “sin” bandied about as if the user actually had some authority to determine which of another person’s behaviors is a “sin”.

    What gives anyone else the right to cast such a judgement on what occers between two consenting adults, let alone outlaw it, as they want to do? In fact, the word ‘sin’ is too loaded. Murder is a crime. Theft is a crime. But what happens between to consenting adults? That’s no one else’s business, it’s no crime, and it’s no sin, either. The great “sin” in my opinion, is to try to impose or legislate your own personal or religious views upon other people who are doing no harm.

    If someone wants to believe in a god, and it gives them a sense of comfort or security or belonging, I’m glad for them to have that–I’m not going to try to convince them that there is no god, or that my god is better than their god. And I certainly won’t call them sinners for going against what I believe.

    Trouble starts when certain religious people cast themselves as correct and superior and therefore in a better position to judge others; the next step is outlaw certain behaviors or customs simply because they aren’t in keeping with their personal beliefs. It is a slippery slope.

    What can’t we just live and let live? Accept people for who they are? No gay person should have to apologize to anyone for who he or she is, or have to suffer for it. No gay, no trans, no person of color, no woman, no one, should be forced to fight for his or her basic rights, and that includes the right to marry.

Let's Talk

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s